probably because Confucianism, if I'm not mistaken, doesn't rest on a system of supernatural belief as it does simply looking back a few hundred years and acting the way your ancestors did. Rather than anchoring morality and right action to holy decrees, confucianism seems to anchor them to what some dead, literate and very wealthy guys did yay many years ago. Which si probably why even though they aren't religious countries, Japan and Korea (including N. Korea, as they even deny that gays even exist- it's a capitalist thing, lulz) are extremely conservative and up-tight.

We have a version of that here in the U.S.- constitutional originalism. that our nation's founding document must always mean what it supposedly meant 230 years ago and shouldn't be interpreted to mean anything relevant to a changing society. this is of course destroyed in a statement given by one of the U.S.'s founding fathers who is often invoked in originalist arguments, Thomas Jefferson, when he said that

The question Whether one generation of men has a right to bind
another, seems never to have been started either on this or our side
of the water. Yet it is a question of such consequences as not only
to merit decision, but place also, among the fundamental principles
of every government. The course of reflection in which we are
immersed here on the elementary principles of society has presented

this question to my mind; and that no such obligation can be
transmitted I think very capable of proof. I set out on this ground
which I suppose to be self evident, "that the earth belongs in
usufruct to the living" that the dead have neither powers nor
rights over it."

>>12934
I love those folks, especially when their arguments rely on modern day definitions of words that had (often quite) different definitions in colonial times.

>>12935

me too, because they're speaking my language, modern english

>>12935
Quite right. One of those phrases they retroactively interpret is "natural born", which was eighteenth century speak for referring to Jus soli, despite claims of various retards to the contrary.

>>12935
lol, my favorite anachronistic problem with this is when people say "there's no mention of privacy in the constitution!" well of course there isn't, because privacy in 18th century vernacular meant going to the pooper.

actually japan does not really share confucious beliefs, however korea holds them very high, japan is quite different than korea and china especially in terms of thinking religion and spirituality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLmVlUGJC_E

can someone explain the arguments behind all this stuff, in modern day terms, and reference the ancient version of it for posterity and context?

>>12943
Wikipedia tells me there seemed to be an unresolved debate between native Kokugaku ideas and Neo-Confucianism until the advent of Westernisation. It would be cool for a native to enlighten us with a clear exposition in simple English.

I've lived in all the East Asian countries except for Vietnam and talked with a good number of people. The most common response I hear is that people just don't care. It's just kind of lost on them. Ask a Japanese person what's the difference between Shinto and Buddhism and the majority can't distinguish the two. They just take part in a few ceremonies once in a while because their parents did too. Ask a Korean person and you'll get one of three answers: 1) Christianity is the thing because a third of the country is evangelical Christian. 2) One of a hundred Buddhist sects... but don't ask me, it's my parents, I swear it's my parents that believe that old stuff... 3) I don't care. Why are you asking me? And finally, China seems to be the least religious. Communism I suppose did a lot, but also people seem disinterested by religious topics or concerns. They'll wear a Buddha around their necks but if asked don't have a clue what Buddhism is about (like someone in a Theravada Buddhist country would). The reasons for all this could be varied: rapid modernization (relatively) from 1870's to now, quickly throwing away old things and ideas in place of the new, being confronted with a culture (Western) in the late 1800's that had already let go of much of it's religiousness and taking a lot from that culture, also Confucian philosophy is primarily about social relationships, spiritual concerns aren't central to Confucianism.

>>13056
I'm a person living in an area with a majority Chinese population and its kind of true what he said, we don't really care much about religion. The focus of confucianism is not in believing in a higher power (although Confucius himself referred frequently to 天, tian, or the heavens), rather it's focus is on creating a society that is in harmony and balance with itself. Think more of Confucianism as a moral doctrine rather than a religious one.

The majority of the Japanese population patronize both shinto shrines and buddhist temples yearly. According to some statistics, Japan has more than 150 million people who are members of religious groups (you get this number by adding together the reported member numbers from all the various religious organizations). It is worth noting that the total population of Japan is less than 130 million.

Over 140 Diet members partake in regularly held round-table discussion fora hosted by the Organization for Shinto Shrines.

The governor of Tokyo proclaimed the 2011 earthquake/tsunami-combo to be the wrath of heaven (again, 天(道), go figure), caused by the greed of Japanese people.

Oh, and did you forget the whole Emperor-as-a-direct-descendent-of-the-creator-goddess-worship thing during the prewar era? Hmmm.

>>13069
>shinto shrines and buddhist temples
Buddhism doesn't exactly fit the mold of what Westerners would consider religion. You can be a Buddhist, without "believing", not so for Christianity and the like.

File 134912416931.jpg - (69.07KB , 400x400 , 1349068597495.jpg )

>>12934

Yeah, but dude, Thomas Jefferson WASN'T AT the constitutional convention in Philadelphia, he was at Paris working as an ambassador. So is opinion, while extremely relevant for American conceptions of liberty, is not relevant for interpretation of the constitution, since he wasn't one of the original framers. In fact, he was against the establishment of a central government in the first place, which would make him an anti-federalist, like Patrick Henry or George Mason

>Communism.

Would be right up there in the Confucian scale had not it didnt treat its constituents like shit. Seeing that Leader/Subject relations is a two way game for Confucian Political thought

Ahh, I see- so the Federalists, who dominated the convention, are thereby the proper interpreters and voices of our constitution? Yes, not the father of the document, the Democratic-Republican Madison, Jefferson's dauphin, but Adams, Hamilton, and Washington- virtual (in the case of Washington), and literal (in the case of Hamilton and Adams) monarchists who supported the arbitrary deportation of resident aliens who looked at them funny, and the locking up of newspaper editors for calling them bald. Both deemed unconstitutional- BUT OH WAIT! MUH INTERPRETASHUNZ!

Have fun with your police-state.

Because they're learning from the West's mistakes, and are trying to avoid falling backward into the Stupid Age like us.

>>13079
>Buddhism doesn't exactly fit the mold of what Westerners would consider religion

Of course it doesn't. Neither does Shinto, Dao, nor Confucianism. If you want to argue that East-Asian countries are less religious than western countries based purely on semantics then of course you'd be correct. After all, the West invented the term religion for its own use (It was imported into Meiji-era Japan, causing untold havoc on the intellectual discourse on religion in Japan even up until present day).

> You can be a Buddhist, without "believing"
Read up on some social anthropological studies of buddhism in practice, as opposed to the intellectualized Zen you get fed in the west. In contemporary culture as well as historically, belief and faith are major aspects of the lay person's relationship to buddhism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion



The Boxers believed that through training, diet, martial arts, and prayer they could perform extraordinary feats, such as flight. Further, they popularly claimed that millions of spirit soldiers would descend from the heavens and assist them in purifying China of foreign influences.

>The Boxers were only lightly armed with rifles and swords, claiming supernatural invulnerability towards blows of cannon, rifle gunshots, and knife attacks. The Boxers were typical of millennarian movements, such as the American Indian Ghost Dance, often rising in societies under extreme stress.

I don't think this one worked, crazy supernatural beliefs lead to death of lots of crazy people

also, as it happens, there's a certain form of "spiritualism" that's highly metaphorical that recognizes less and less the distinction between the imaginary and the real, and doesn't hold it to be as important, which does wonders for the ability not to give a damn about evidence that might point out flaws in one's belief, even though one doesn't necessarily *ignore* such evidence - they simply don't care

it's *weird* I know

furthermore, psychiatry might have a relation to this question, I happen to find the chinese zodiac neat and useful for discussing personality types, I don't find the dates = type thing to be useful, but I'm still willing to accept the general classification and use the terms regardless

something like that may be occurring with supernatural stuff in china, and don't be fooled, there's still plenty of genuine superstition in china, their core unifying culture is secular hero figures though, their spiritual/religious aspects are shamanistic in many ways

Well, Confucianism is a social philosophy rather than religion.
The religions that have taken off in East Asia, such as Buddhism, ancestor worship and Shinto, are much more introspective - such as the Buddhist goal of achieving Nirvana (enlightenment) within yourself, rather than Judaism, Islam and Christianity which are much more dogmatic and evangelical.

>>13117
>Well, Confucianism is a social philosophy rather than religion.
>The religions that have taken off in East Asia, such as (...) ancestor worship
Well, ancestor worship is an integral part of Confucianism. Again, 'religion' is an alien concept to east asia, the structural divide between religion and philosophy we claim to have in the West is a lot less clear in the east, where the two were never differentiated in such a manner.

As for your other point, it has already been addressed. If you want specifics, look up for instance gense riyaku (現世利益) for an illustration of Japanese religion running counter to you ideas of "introspective salvation" as a systemic mainstay of Japanese Buddhism in anything but name only. If there's a scholar of Christianity or Islam here, maybe he would shed some light on Christian mysticism or Islamic Sufism (and I think Judaism has something called Kabbalah as well)? Similarly, Buddhism has esoteric and exoteric aspects. In the West, it has been mostly the idealized and intellectualized, esoteric zen that has been propagated, and I'm pretty much done pointing out that there is a vast exoteric side as well that has been subjected to field studies and research that should be readily available at your local uni's library, if you wish to know.

As for Shinto as such, it has no doctrines, so _in theory_ it is infinitely less dogmatical than (most versions of) the Abrahamic religions.

>>12933
Since I've been living in Japan the last six years, I have a bit of perspective on religion here that I'd like to share.

In fact, a Japanese religion was my very first interest in asian culture (yeah, I am the 1% that didn't come to japan for animu, really): Zen, or zazen as they say in japan (also refers to the meditative posture). Zen is supposedly a stripped-down version of buddhism that anyone can practice, but it also supports sects that practice more extreme self-denial.

The average Japanese will tell you they have no particular religion. The same person also goes to a Shinto shrine to pray for the new year in the freezing cold every year and will be cremated and buried with a new name chosen by a Buddhist priest. They go to shrines to pray for luck and to temples to pray for wealth, or vice-versa. Retirees go on pilgrimages, wearing white head-to toe and bearing a walking stick with sacred verses inscribed on it, by charter bus. They may be married in either a Shinto or Buddhist ceremony, depending on the will of the more important family elder, with only immediate family and elders present. A few days later they will be married again at a theatrical Christian ceremony where they invite all their family and friends. I have actually worked as a show-priest for those weddings--it's good money.

Shinto is said to support a pantheon of gods, and buddhism a non-theological icon Shakyamuni, but to most Japanese they are all "kamisama". All of Japan's gods have lost their names. Only elderly preists and shamans know anything about what the core values of shinto and buddhism are in Japan. All of Japan's religions have lost their dogma as well. Christianity has come in to the mix, gathering a few devouts here and there and blending into the nonsense everywhere else.

Christmas is a big holiday in Japan, although it isn't an official holiday. They celebrate it by buying gifts for children, eating vanila cake with white icing and strawberries, and going on romantic dates. Valentine's Day, when women give chocolate and gifts to men, and the purely Japanese "White Day", when men return chocolate and gifts to women are also big holidays. Halloween is catching on recently, but Easter doesn't seem to translate well.

Even bigger, however, is the Obon season--a week-long buddhist holiday in which the souls of ancestors are welcomed into the home. Along with your ancestors, your wife must prepare the house to welcome a lot of living relatives as well, especially if you've had a death in the family this year because you must have a "hastubon", or "first Obon", for which you will welcome your entire extended family, business and personal associates of the deceased, members of the community, and anyone passing by to ring the bell, light some incense, and pray. This is done over the course of several days with guests constantly coming and going.

Unlike Obon, the Japanese new year is a very relaxed holidy, which starts with the biggest annual television production I have ever seen. For a week everything shuts down except the shrines. During that time you should go to the shrine and burn any charms you've collected in the past year, before they go bad. You must also draw your luck sheet for the year, which is kind of like a horoscope that tells you everything that will happen to you this year. There are several levels of luck: "big bad luck", "bad luck", "stable luck", "good luck", "big good luck", etc. as well as detailed fortunes for every topic from travel to pregnancy. This is folded into a strip and tied to a tree at the shrine, or a fence if the tree is full. Breaking a tree branch or ripping the paper while tying is considered extremely unlucky.

Now and then, Japanese enjoy going to a shrine or temple spontaneously or for sightseeing. The do not miss the oportunity to pray, but regard the trip as something akin to a picnic or a hike. There are some special temples and shrines that are particularly popular for this practice, such as the world-famous Kiyomizu-dera temple in Kyoto where you can always find a heap of both Japanese and foriegn tourists, and Ise-jinja, the head shrine of the Shinto religion where the emperor goes to communicate with his deity ancestors once a year.

There is a certain political group that drives large white SUVs and black vans all around every city blasting Casey Kasem's pre-war top 20, interrupted on occasion by speeches vowing to restore the holy emperor to his rightful throne, vanquish the foriegn devils, and restore Japan as the world's greatest military empire. Most Japanese regard them as actually being Koren or Chinese subverters.

Yes, Japan is a country with no particular religion, but lots of religious nonsense.

Yes, China is fairly non-religious. It may have something to do with the age of the culture/civilization. As it matures it has a tendency to "grow" away from religion in the same way an individual might when exposed to various experiences and new knowledge over time.

I know for a fact that many Chinese tend to be quite superstitious to varying degrees. That said, they may not adhere to the big name religions, but instead to an amalgamation of old pagan beliefs tinged with Buddhism/Taoism.

Besides, Confucianism doesn't have much of the predominant role it used to have anymore thanks to Mr. Mao.

>>13466
>Confucianism doesn't have much of the predominant role it used to have anymore thanks to Mr. Mao
The communists have retained large parts of the culture, think only of the exam-driven selection for the bureaucracy.

>>13082

yeah, I fucking hate when people mix up democratic-republicans and federalists.

federalism is the exact reason the US is what it is today.

Confucianism is Old Crank conservatism, part of which was deemed useful as tool in establishing a sense of cultural identity. It was still useful in this regard, after the communist revolution showed everyone how destructive religion had been to them over the ages and how it was holding them back and keeping them in intellectual and economic poverty.

...and by showed, I mean grabbed them by their faces, tied them down to a fucking electric chair, pried their eyelids open clockwork-orange style, beat them with spiked clubs for a while, lit their shoes on fire, and blasted the images into their eyeballs with a million candle-power projector, then went out and smashed and burned and blasted with cannons their entire goddamn history so there would be no turning back. They meant to leave an irreversible lasting impression, and they did.

It's unfortunate for the human species that lasting progress tends to come at the hands of violent authoritarians in these horrible bloody losses of culture and life, but it's a fairly common theme throughout history. Some heavy-handed asshole comes to power with a grand vision, realizes there's no way to implement it without slaughtering everyone not on board, does so, and then what remains of the culture, bloodied and dazed, makes a little lurch forward an inch or two. It's monstrously horrible, but it's also why most humans have developed from living short miserable lives to thriving in unprecedented ease and comfort. The ends don't justify the means to the people and cultures that paid the cost, but since there's no changing the fact that it happened, they paid it, we have nothing to do but accept history and keep the best aspects of the ends that those means bought.

Unfortunately, I think that's the best that progress and human civilization can say for itself, which isn't much. That's why I get high instead of contributing to it.

confucianism reminds me of plato and cliven bundy in a vague chinese aesthetic kind of way

>>14482
The thing about China is you could just as easily be talking about Qin Shi Huang Di as Mao...

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CALL THE EMPEROR OF QIN I DON'T GIVE A FUCK

“One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious.”

― C.G. Jung

Form is the shape, visual appearance, constitution or configuration of an object. In a wider sense, the form is the way something is or happens.

function
1. The action or purpose for which a person or thing is suited or employed, especially:


Religion
A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence.[note 1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that aim to explain the meaning of life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good_Earth
dat plot. think grapes of wrath except not even close in most ways

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laozi#Tao_Te_Ching

File 142166419355.jpg - (499.25KB , 2829x1407 , Pink Floyd - The Wall - Book p_1.jpg )

I had an alternative art picture of mickey mouse baseball batting someone with other iconic corporate deities and gestalts fighting but it's too big to post

chinese people aren't interested in religion for the same reason capitalists aren't happy about mcdonald's or some other corporation

it's a baseline substrate and works to disillusion people from the concept altogether and the more this happens the more people give up trying to find meaning in things (it's a good political tactic for control)

of course this means that usually the only people who keep going are either obsessed with meaning and will latch on to the first thing they see whether that's a suicide cult or something glorious like anarchist movement (planting trees is super serious revolutionary work)

the small groups raise hell, irk and scare the masses and then they get a sudden impetus to try to find out more, the powers that be have to work extra hard to give explanations as to what happened, this however sparks interest again in investigation of events and meaning in a bit of the population that had previously given up and a chain reaction ensues

this continues until people get sick of it and a reverse process sort of emerges

so what I'm saying is, it's so unquestioned as the way of life noone needs a fantastic imagination of it being better than it actually is

however that's partially because they don't know of a better life, I can't speak for china but there's elements of this that are growing more and more common in japan's artwork

china's a culture unto itself the way a continent is in some respects similar to that of the european union and I don't know anything about it other than they're frightened of alternate history since it imagines a world without the chinese communist party often

Japan had The Meiji Restoration where all religions exept for Shintoism where more or less put aside.

>>12933
some of the most religious countrys are japan and korea you dumb ass

>>13125
That sounds pretty cool. I wonder if we had something similar.

>>12934
>they deny gays even exist,it's a capitalist thing
Holy based

>>15120
I know one thing.

Casey Kasem was born in 1932. That kid must have been amazing to have his own Top 20 radio show before he was a teenager.